Don t Continue to Be a Pawn of the Jedi Council Be a Pawn of the Dark Side

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1. I watched the Phantom Menace the other day and feel like the whole plan of the emperor for the movie was to eliminate Qui-gon from the picture so that Anakin could be trained by an inexperienced Ob1wan Kenobi. Being that the emperor can forsee things that will happen in the future, I believe he had forseen that Anakin was a potential apprentice for him being that he was not trained when he was young and the emperor says: 'I will be watching your career with great interest'. With Anakin having such great potential and with his Jedi training being mishandled, the emperor was able to move in and influence Anakin easily to the dark side. Easier than say if he had an experienced Jedi master training him like Qui-gon. Obi-wan was the perfect jedi trainer from the emperor's point of view since this would be his first padawan learner. Obiwan also mentions in the OT that he thought he could train Anakin as well as Yoda, but was a fool to believe so.
   Another reason I believe Obiwan was a pawn was he was the one that went to get the clone army from Lamasul sp? The clues to get him there (missing planet in map room) were left by the emperor or one of his henchmen. So Obiwan was an unwilling instrument to create both the storm troopers and Darth Vader. I don't know if this is what Lucas intended or not? it makes sense though being that the Emperor forsees alot of things that the jedi don't throughout the prequels.

2. Obi-Wan is a definite catalyst in the PT as well as the OT. He is the proto-typical 'story teller' of a mythological saga, usually a role cast to someone with a tragic personal side-story to the main line of the saga.

   Obi-Wan first senses something that is not right when he and Qui-Gon are sent to Naboo in the beginning of TPM to 'negotiate' with the Nemodians. He is the one who suggest Padme's crippled star cruiser divert to Tatooine. He watches the first Sith seen in many years kill his master, then defeats Maul with magnificent slight of hand. As easily as he dispatches Maul, he fails miserably against "the master of his master," Qui-Gon's teacher and new Sith apprentice Count Dooku, former Jedi apprentice of Yoda himself.

   Obi-Wan does not wish for Anakin to be trained -- almost as if he knows or feels something dangerous about Anakin. Upon reluctantly agreeing to fulfill the dying wishes of his master Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan becomes an able teacher and great Jedi. But he cannot emotionally connect to his volitile apprentice. Perhaps Anakin's label as the Chosen One is hindering Obi-Wan's abilty to keep his padawan in line, perhaps Obi-Wan is simply more attuned to the 'whill of the force' as he allows Anakin to choose how he will fulfill his appointed destiny.

   But Obi-Wan is not the pawn of Palpatine, for he and Yoda lay the seeds of the Emperor's eventual destruction when they hide Anakin's twins after Padme's death, awaiting the time when the force will bring the children to them in order to free the galaxy of the Sith plague. Throught Obi-Wan Luke (and Leia too) rally to his and Yoda's cause to confront Vader and the Emperor.

   Finally, had Obi-Wan been merely the pawn of a Sith Lord, he would not have learned to transcend mortality and retain eternal consciousness through the force, aka 'force ghost Ben.'

3. Obichron, I see your point about Obiwan being reluctant at first and only training Anakin because Qui-gon wanted him to. That would point to Qui-gon being the misguided one then. But he is the one who learns the secret to communicating with the living after dying so he must not be that misguided. Still, there was something in ROTJ I believe when Obi-wan's ghost tells Luke that he thought he could train Anakin as well as Yoda. He made it sound like he was young and pridefull back when he was training Anakin. It was a common problem with Jedi of the day. At the same time, you don't feel in the prequels that Obiwan is a conceited Jedi. Which, may be a plot discrepency between the two trilogies that George didn't intend. Where was Obiwan's supposed pride that he talked about in the OT?

   In the original trilogy you get the feeling Ben made some wrong moves when he trained Anakin (and I believe the emperor knew this and wanted this to happen). In the prequels, I don't get as much of a sense that he did anything wrong other than going against Yoda's wishes and training Anakin because Qui-gon wanted him to. Other than that, Anakin did all the stupid things to get him in the mess he got in (with the help of the emperor manipulating him).
   Throughout the prequels though, the underlying theme is that Palpatine is orchestrating everything hence the title 'Phantom Menace' meaning the main plot was a diversion for future plans of the emperor - maybe. I'm still not certain if the title has any big signifigance or just a simple movie title. I don't remember if George has said anything about it.

4. Obiwan Kenobi was no pawn of the Emperor. Though Anakin's future was clouded, he was still a good kid at heart and needed to be trained. Palpatine most likely did not want a guy like Kenobi training Anakin because of his dedication to the lightside of the Force. Though Ginn had more experience, I think he would have been closer to the darkside than Kenobi. That is why Palpatine sent Kenobi to fight Grevious, so without Kenobi's influence to guide Skywalker, he would twist Anakin to the point of coverting him into a sith lord. Also, the reason commander cody got order 66 was because Palpatine had Kenobi for killing Maul and his influence over Skywalker, his most prized apprentice. During TPM, Palpatine had no idea about Anakin. Only at the end when he sees what Anakin has done and how talented he is, does he realize that he wants to bring him to the darkside. Most likely during the years between the TPM and AOTC does Palpatine discover Skywalker's great flaw of attachment and set forth plans to exploit it when ready. Putting Padme and Anakin together was the fist step.

5. Vader6, I feel differently, Anakin was a virgin born, possibly from the force, child. It has been speculated that the emperor could have been involved in his creation. If the emperor was not involved then who was? Even if he wasn't, Darth Maul was on Tatoine sp? and would have told the emperor all that was going on and would have probably sensed Anakin's high midichlorian count just like Qui-gon did.
   Palpatine also knew that Qui-gon and Obiwan were sent to negotiate the treaty and would have known the Jedi were helping the queen. Palpatine was a member of the senate and also Viceroy Gunray told him the jedi were there so the emperor did know about Obiwan and probably knew about Anakin from Darth Maul. Obiwan just happened to be at the wrong place so that the emperor could use him for training Anakin in a sloppy way.
   It could have been any inexperienced jedi that the emperor wanted to use.
   It just happened to be Obiwan. Qui-gon was killed by Maul and Maul being killed probably was ok with the emperor as long as Obiwan survived to train Anakin otherwise Anakin wouldn't have been trained by the Jedi since no one else would have trained him.

6. True, but wouldn't it have been easier for the Emperor if the Jedi had never trained Anakin and he took him in as a Sith at age 9?

7. I believe officially you can only have 1 sith apprentice at a time so the emperor needed both Maul and Dooku to do his bidding before he could have Anakin as his apprentice. Dooku was used to alter records and learn secrets of the jedi and start the clone wars thereby making Palpatine the emperor of the Galactic Empire. Anakin could not have gotten him this power and maybe Palpatine wanted Anakin to have jedi training but still not be able to help his mother or Padme thereby he could step in and claim that the sith can stop people from dying like Anakin always wanted.
   If the emperor would have trained Anakin at birth and not have Maul as his apprentice and then Dooku, the emperor would not have gotten the power he needed to take control and wipe out the jedi I believe.

8. I'm from the school of thought that the Force created Anakin. It's left open in the films of it's the Force or the Sith. The EU is going with Sith creation idea, great, but I still think it was the Force. Qui-gon didn't sense it. He felt that Anakin was Force senstive, not that he had a midichorian count higher than even Yoda. Maul knew what exactly? Maul didn't know anything. Only Qui-Gon believed Anakin to be the Chosen One at that point and he kept that to himself until he went before the council. Kenobi was a rising star in the Jedi Order. If Palpatine thought Anakin was going to be trained sloppy he was dead wrong. Kenobi was the embodiment of what a Jedi should be. He taught Anakin well. Anakin's fall should not be blamed on Kenobi. Yoda says that no one, besides the Jedi himself, can force a fall to the darkside. No, other Jedi could have trained Anakin, if not Obiwan. I'm frankly shocked that Obiwan did end up training him as this was a boy that had the potential to be the strongest Jedi in the history of the Order.

9. Sidious didn't intend for Maul to die like that, so he had to go with Anakin but needed Dooku first.

10. Yep. Palps basically had to get the best man for the job for the time being, until the best man for the job was trained by the Jedi and influenced by him until the time was right to convert him.

11. Nobody can be sure what He was planning. Palpatine may have had many apprentices in his lifetime. Pre-Phantom Menace we don't know how many he had in the past. It's not like he's a young guy in the prequels. You can't disagree that Palpatine wanted Dooku killed in Episode III and Vader killed in Episode VI. This could have been a continual pattern. The emperor was a very cunning fellow. I may be giving him more credit than he's due, but it is probable that he didn't want Maul around too long. Otherwise, Maul would attempt to take his masters life. Sith inevitably want to destroy one other and take control for themselves.

    I think the only purpose he had for ordering the takeover of Naboo was to get himself into the chancellor's chair. Why would he care what is going to happen on Naboo? After forcing the Queen to sign the treaty, what would Palpatine gain then? It wouldn't get him anything additional. The only reason it was setup was to get the Trade Federation to start the Separtist movement later on.
    Palpatine would have wanted to kill Maul eventually.

12. If you accept EU, apparently Maul was his first and was being trained while he was still the Apprentice of Darth Plageus.

13. You don't even need the eu. Maul was the first and only Apprentice. And Palpatine is only 50 years old in TPM. Maul failed and so he had to go to someone else. Once Tyranus had served his purose, Vader was put into play. But Luke could be better than Vader and so Palpatine wanted the elder Skywalker put out to pasture.

14. Sinister posted:

    "You don't even need the eu. Maul was the first and only Apprentice. And Palpatine is only 50 years old in TPM. Maul failed and so he had to go to someone else. Once Tyranus had served his purose, Vader was put into play. But Luke could be better than Vader and so Palpatine wanted the elder Skywalker put out to pasture."

    More like 'sent to the glue factory!'

15. Oh man, I just had a flash of Palpatine as Napoleon from Animal Farm.

16. DarthSinister, I guess I have to agree with you that he didn't intend for Maul to die like that. There is nothing in the movie to show it was planned for him to die.
    There is nothing tangible there.
    That being said, In AOTC, which has a mystery plot to it, it does seem like Obiwan is lead along a trail of breadcrumbs to the clone army in order to get the empire formed with the help of a big clone army that the jedi (Obiwan) supplied. This was certainly intentional done by Sidious. Like others have said, it got Obiwan away from training Anakin properly too. Maybe a more experienced, wiser jedi may have not done this....
    And Anakin would not have turned in the end. Obiwan should have realized he needed to keep a watch on Anakin. Palpatine knew Anakin at this point and was able to keep The Jedi and Obiwan busy so he could influence Anakin.
    

17. Should Yoda have trained Anakin? I know he only gives younglings basic training (I assume that Dooku was his last full padawan, though I dunno what EU says about it)but he is supposed to be the wisest and most powerful Jedi in the Order right?

    Someone might point out that Yoda didn't think that Anakin should have been trained, but that might actually help Anakin, since Yoda would pay more attention to Anakin's shortcomings.

    Plus, Anakin already has emotional connections to people (Qui-Gon, Shmi, Padme) and I think that someone with Yoda's experience would have been better equipped to handle Anakin. After all he is the Chosen One right? I would have thought that the Council would have wanted Yoda to train him and not Obi-Wan, since he had just been made a Knight.

    It could be said that Yoda failed in controlling Luke and teaching him to let go of his deep connections to other people, but Luke was much older, he had already developed feelings for the world around him, whereas anakin, who was 9, had really only begun to learn about those connections and it would have been easier to shape his outlook on life than Luke's.

18. The only reason it was Obi-wan, was because of his influence over the boy. Otherwise it would've been some other Jedi. It's not that Obi-wan wasn't wise to let himself be separated, rather Palpatine manipulated the situation so that they had to be separated. Obi-wan didn't want them separated, but the Council said otherwise and he had to go along with it. He did object, but it didn't change that the Council had faith in Anakin to be alone.

19. Well, I guess some have speculated this before, but not as in depth and well reasoned as you have stated. It might be argued that the dark side of the force has a will also. And This 'will' wanted Obiwan to train Anakin instead of a wiser Yoda. And Darth Sidious is beholden to the power of the dark side so it really wasn't him resposible for some of the events in the prequels. Maybe it has something to do with the imbalance in the force that was occurring. Qui-gon sensed a vergence which, to me means combining something. Maybe that meant Sidious and the dark side throwing things out of balance.

    What you say about Yoda training others is interesting. On the one hand, in Empire, Obiwan's ghost says on Hoth "you must go to the dagobah system and be trained by Yoda, the jedi instructor who trained me" I thought all along that in the prequels, Yoda was Obiwans master. But in the prequels we only see Yoda training young ones. With Yoda being 900 years old, I would have to believe he trained older jedi too.

20. The dark side doesn't have a will. What happened was due to circumstances from the duel on Naboo. Obi-wan promised Qui-gon to train Anakin and the Jedi honor promises. So it wouldn't have mattered if Yoda wanted to train Anakin, it was not his place to make Obi-wan break his promise.

21. Good arguments and points, Sinister.

    

22. Mace Windu should have trained him! He would have taught to show some respect!

23. In the ROTS novelization, Yoda calls Mace Windu, "my Padawan". I took that to mean that Yoda had trained Mace, more than just initiate classes. But I have found nothing else to substantiate that idea.

24. Yoda trained Luke when he was older. This is an example of his ability to train a padawan. If he didn't train anyone else, I don't know how he would be a jedi master on the jedi council. It is a prerequisite to have this experience. I thought I read somewhere that he trained Yaddle. Being on the council must affect this also. You no longer have the time to train individuals. I'm not 100% sure about that.

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